Old Forests, REDD Rage and Earth Revolution

Earth and her humanity need old forests to exist. And all enabling their destruction, including potential carbon markets paying for ’sustainable forest management’ in primary forests, are legitimate targets for an Earth Revolution.

June 30, 2009
By Dr. Glen Barry, Ecological Internet
Earth Meanders come from Earth’s Newsdesk, http://www.ecoearth.info/newsdesk/
http://www.ecoearth.info/earthmeanders/

For too long those feeding upon the trough of “sustainable” forestry have been perpetuating the myth that primary and old growth forests can and should be harvested using “Sustainable Forest Management” (SFM) techniques. Old Forests are key to ecosystem, biodiversity, human and the Earth System’s survival. Along with other intact natural terrestrial, aquatic and marine habitats; old forests are the internal organs of the Planet and regulate the Earth System to maintain conditions conducive to life. Primary forests logged for the first time are permanently ecologically damaged in terms of composition, structure, function and dynamics.

I am stunned, dumfounded and enraged at the wholesale selling out of the climate and forest, led by big environmental NGOs (BINGOs). The latest positive idea for an ecologically sustainable Earth — Reduced Emissions from Deforestation and Diminishment (REDD) — to pay for ancient forest protection with carbon monies, is at this very moment being watered down to mean business as usual first time logging of primary forests that forever destroys ecosystems and habitats. Like “sustainable development” and “certified forestry”, the REDD concept of paying for protection of old forests’ carbon stores, biodiversity and ecosystem is being taken over by industry.

Current thinking is that REDD will not primarily pay for avoided deforestation — that is keeping and benefiting locally from standing old forests — but instead pushes long-failed and mythical “sustainable forest management” in the world’s remaining dwindling primary forests. Latest REDD proposals as part of the UN climate policy process focus upon paying for everything but keeping old forests standing. I am absolutely appalled at the environmental movement for rolling over on climate offsets in general, and their tolerance or promotion of “sustainable forest management” for the world’s remaining primary forests, rather than strict protection.

I am enraged and indignant. Well known NGO’s obstinate support for Forest Stewardship Council’s certification of first time primary forest logging as “well-managed”, while implying sustainability, has set the stage for industrial logging to be falsely marketed as a climate change solution. On the back of NGO greenwashing, first time industrial logging of primary forests is now claimed to be beneficial to climate, never mind that most timber products are in the landfill decomposing within years, and that current and future forest carbon stores are reduced for millennia.

Nothing fills me with such rage as the selling out of ancient life giving forests by greens and BINGOs. Under REDD+ UN climate proposals, sustainable forest management, clearing of primary forests to be replaced by plantations, and selective logging of never before industrially harvested forests, could all be granted carbon credits. To solve climate change, your tax monies are to be used to pay to log the last primary and old growth forests which hold and remove unbelievably vast amounts of carbon. This is like being against slavery and committing to treating your slaves better at the same time.

Old forests make Earth habitable. The fact that such an ecological ignorant and ludicrous notion as logging old forests with carbon monies for alleged climate benefits is being entertained illustrates clearly the failure of Western democratic consumption system. Along with other political signals, such as ridiculously low carbon emission reduction targets being set by rich industrial economies, emerging economies refusal to reduce emissions, as well as a clear lack of understanding how these targets will be met within the dominant economic growth paradigm, all indications are that current prevailing economic and government systems are inadequate and are unable to respond to looming ecological collapse and end of being.

Old forests are our home. We and many species have evolved there or nearby, and are utterly dependent upon their carbon storage, biodiversity, soil, water, wildlife, rain and other ecosystem processes they provide. Earth is faced with an unprecedented emergency as its surface is scoured of life and the ecologically cumulative biosphere collapses. Nothing impacts climate, water or oceans more than denuding natural forests. To advocate cutting down the last bits of old forests that allow us to live, to be paid for by money to address climate change, is an outrageous crime against humanity that cannot go unchallenged.

I am absolutely appalled at the environmental movement for rolling over on demanding sufficient climate policy. The forest movement has been piddling about with certified forests, once off protests, demonstration projects and market campaigns for decades. Specifically, their promotion of industrial scaled “certified” or “sustainable” forest management of old forests, rather than strict protection and local community eco-forestry, illustrates the death of ecological science based free thinking adequate to solve the Earth crisis on hand. And meanwhile Earth continues to be scraped of its forest skin.

The degree of corporate collaboration (including by BINGOS) to find ways to profit financially from ecological Armageddon is sickening. It is this desire for endless profit that has brought us to the edge of global ecocide. Any organization, individual, company, government, BINGO or other espousing industrial first time logging of remaining primary and old growth forests is a criminal and liable. They do not understand the imperatives of ecological science, and that our way of life is destroying the ecosystems required for our and all life. And as such they are legitimate targets for protests of many sorts.

I have come to believe the only way to bring about global ecological sustainability will be an Earth Revolution to overthrow the whole stinking and unsustainable system of growth in economy, population and inequitable consumption. We are failing to maintain Earth’s ecological infrastructure, and it is now time to seriously raise our game and only pursue what is necessary to ensure humanity and Gaia’s shared survival.

Human survival depends upon paying local peoples and governments to protect and restore old forests, while helping local peoples and governments benefit from them remaining standing. If REDD is not gotten right at Copenhagen (and ambitious short term emissions reductions targets set), than the only manner to achieve global ecological sustainability will be to overthrow the industrial growth machine. Any such Stewardship Revolution would be well advised to focus upon those that continue antiquated processes of burning and cutting Earth to death. Those scouring the Earth of biological life must no longer go unpunished. Whatever it takes, old forest logging and other industrial destruction must end now.

Failure at Copenhagen and immediately after to protect old forests, put in place immediate emissions reductions, and urgently address over-population and inequitable consumption will mean our only chance of ecological survival is revolutionary action. If international efforts to address climate change instead intend to clear the last remnants of an intact global ecosystem, they will need to be resisted using all means necessary. We may or may not choose to wage war upon those we know are destroying being, but failure at Copenhagen will make violent revolution THE only way to save a habitable Earth populated by complex life including humans. For life and Earth, it is time to revolt.

US climate actions

(Earth) — Ecological Internet (EI) welcomes the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency’s ruling today that carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases “may endanger public health or welfare”, a finding that opens to door to future regulation of such emissions under the Clean Air Act. EI continues to demand that emission cuts be fast and large, that Congress not weaken planned E.P.A. carbon regulation, and that Congress abandon cap and trade legislation for a simple, highly effective, carbon tax. And that the U.S. leads at Copenhagen or feel the consequences.

 

The E.P.A said in its proposed endangerment finding that “based on rigorous, peer-reviewed scientific analysis of six gases – carbon dioxide, methane, nitrous oxide, hydrofluorocarbons, perfluorocarbons and sulfur hexafluoride – that… these gases are at unprecedented levels as a result of human emissions, and these high levels are very likely the cause of the increase in average temperatures and other changes in our climate.” Human health and welfare was thus threatened by increased severity and intensity of storms; more frequent drought, heatwaves, and forest fires; rising sea levels; and harm to water resources, agriculture, wildlife and ecosystems.

 

“We are thrilled to see President Obama dismiss President Bush’s years of criminal climate science obstruction, and to rejoin the world of civilized nations making public policy based upon ecological science, and needs of Earth and her humanity. We encourage the President to follow through with rigorous efforts to immediately begin reducing greenhouse gas emissions, including phasing out the use of coal and tar sands, ending old forest logging, committing further to energy efficiency and renewable, and resisting the siren song of industrial agrofuels,” says Ecological Internet President, Dr. Glen Barry.

 

Ecological Internet has provided leadership for years in the movement to have carbon dioxide regulated. EI’s global Earth Action Network publicly and successfully worked with others to urge the U.S. Supreme Court to rule that carbon dioxide is a pollutant under the Clean Air Act and that the EPA had the right to regulate CO2 emissions [1]. Earlier this year several thousand global citizen activists from around the world, organized by EI, urged the new President to “immediately start regulating carbon dioxide as a pollutant under the Clean Air Act [2].” President Obama listened.

 

Dr. Barry warns, however, that “Earth has already passed a critical threshold whereby there are too many people consuming too much, not enough terrestrial ecosystems remain intact, and there is too much carbon in the atmosphere. Maintaining the biosphere and achieving global ecological sustainability depends critically upon social change and personal transformation at a previously unknown scale. Humanity simply must stop burning and cutting Gaia to death, and embrace an age of ecological protection and restoration. This E.P.A. announcement is an important start.”

Australia

Australia must stop being a climate change laggard. Given severe drought and massive wildfires, the Rudd Government’s target to reduce carbon emissions by 5% by 2020 is dangerously insufficient. BRIEF BACKGROUND: The Australian government is failing to establish and implement a rigorous climate change policy adequate to respond to the global climate emergency. The Rudd Government’s emissions trading scheme (ETS) aims to cut emissions by 5 percent by 2020 and 60 percent by 2050. The Government’s cowardly response to its greatest challenge has been explicitly condemned by climate scientists and implicitly condemned by recent climate enhanced devastating bushfires which tragically killed 200 people. Australia’s per capita greenhouse gas emissions are among the highest in the world, and their economy is based heavily upon the deadly coal fossil fuel industry which exerts undue political influence. Unsustainable Australian lifestyles including native forest clearing and wasteful water use threaten their continent’s fragile ecosystems, and the drought and intensified bushfires are a precursor of Australian and global ecosystem collapse to come. Given imminent strengthened regulation of greenhouse gases in the United States and Europe, it is time for Australia to embrace sufficient climate change policies including committing to ambitious targets that will require ending its use and export of coal, and stopping native forest clearing. TAKE ACTION NOW: http://www.climateark.org/shared/alerts/send.aspx?id=australia_climate

Prince Charles blue over green crusade

LONDON, (AFP) – Prince Charles admitted in an interview published Sunday that he found it “depressing” that his frequent warnings over climate change had not been heeded.

The Prince of Wales added, though, that he was “delighted” that it seemed people had begun to realise that he had in fact been ringing the alarm over a serious issue and not “complete nonsense”.

“All I have been trying to do is remind people that we have to live and work in harmony with nature if we are to have any chance of surviving on this planet,” Charles told the Sunday Telegraph in the Galapagos Islands at the end of a 10-day tour of South America.

Asked if he was frustrated his warnings had not been taken seriously, he replied: “It is depressing. I am not doing this for myself but, as I keep saying, for everyone’s children and our grandchildren.”

Charles added, however, that “if now people are beginning to realise perhaps, after all, I wasn’t talking complete nonsense, then I am delighted.”

While in Brazil earlier this month, Charles said the current global financial crisis is “nothing” compared to the long-term impact of climate change, telling a meeting of Brazilian business leaders and officials: “We are, I fear, at a defining moment in the world’s history.”

Critical Elephant Corridor in India to be Severed

Critical Elephant Corridor in India to be Severed

By Ecological Internet's Forests.org project
 http://forests.org/
  March 3, 2009

TAKE ACTION HERE NOW:
http://forests.org/shared/alerts/send.aspx?id=india_elephants

Help avert a serious threat to the largest surviving
Elephant Population in India – the imminent severance of
the Muthanga Elephant Corridor in Kerala

BRIEF BACKGROUND:
The largest and potentially most viable population of
Asian elephants is found in the mountains of the Western
Ghats where the three Indian states of Kerala, Tamil Nadu
and Karnataka meet. Of a total population of about 2000
elephants surviving in Peninsular India in various
fragmented habitat islands, the largest single population
which may number over 1000 individuals is found in a near
contiguous habitat extending over this 4500sq km tract. A
major inter-state highway linking Bangalore with Calicut
is planned which will further fragment the elephant's
seasonal migration corridor. The Wayanad Nature
Protection Group (Wayanad Prakruthi Samrakshana Samati)
and Rainforest Information Centre have appealed to the
world community to help prevent the severance of this
critical corridor.

TAKE ACTION NOW:
http://forests.org/shared/alerts/send.aspx?id=india_elephants

10 Ways to Make Re-Forestation More Attractive! Approach #8

Join Forces with the Nutrition Industry

The forests are full of treasures! And some are long forgotten, since processed food conquered global markets and made their way into the smallest retail store out there in no-where-land.

If you are traveling in the tropics you find at the most remote spots little retail stores, some half the size of a standard garage. As the world in the tropics is very colorful, this is also a feature of the “minimarkets”. The walls of the little shags are usually painted in brilliant colors and big letters promoting products of the dominating food and beverage producers of the world. A bottle of Coca Cola or a soup cube of Maggy finds it’s way into the most remote corner of the world. But what is being traded backwards?

OK, there is quite some trade in both directions, but there are not many changes since the old colonial days. Coffee is until now the second most trading good on the planet right after crude oil counted in dollars, cacao and spices also have their traditional share.

But there was more, than the old conquerors discovered and added to their extraction list next to gold and silver.

Already more than 2000 Years ago the Mayas cultivated the breadnut (Brosimum alicastrum) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breadnut). The breadnut is an exceptional tree. First of all it grows to huge dimensions, as high as 45 meters and with a voluminous crown. It is reported, that in some villages a single tree was shared by all villagers as a steady food source, by splitting the ownership of the single tree in a manner that every family just owned one branch of the tree, which provided them with sufficient food for basic needs.

Second the fruit of the breadnut tree has excellent nutrition values. he breadnut is extremely high in fiber, calcium, potassium, folic acid, iron, zinc, protein and vitamins A, E, C and B.

Third, the fruit can be eaten fresh from the tree: The fresh seeds can be cooked and eaten or can be set out to dry in the sun to roast and eat later. Stewed the nut tastes like mashed potato, roasted it tastes like chocolate or coffee and can be prepared in numerous other dishes. the classical use was kind of a porridge and baked to flatbread.

Forth, it can easily be dried and processed. Dried and processed to powder it can be stored and exported easily and be used for hot beverages or bread.

Sixth, and most important: modern nutrition companies have not even seriously started to look into the big potential of this exceptional fruit. Comparing it to the potato, it has the advantage, that it grows hig, and thus has a far higher production than the potato growing just one foot deep, or the other way round does not have a high demand of area. Second the same tree is producing the fruits over and over without further cultivation activities. Taking the nutrition facts into consideration plus the availability as powder, it easily opens the doors to a wide range of use, starting from bread and pastry, as supplement for yogurt and milk shakes, or even as substitute for people with milk allergies, for use in pancakes, potato chips, sweets or instant beverages, including caffeine free coffee drinks or ice cream.

The Equilibrium Fund (http://www.theequilibriumfund.org/page.cfm?pageid=2996) is already working on excellent and very promising projects based on the breadnut (Brosimum alicastrum). Winn food giants like Nestle to add breadnut to theit shopping list and create some more products using it as a ingredient would make the Brosimum alicastrum a welcome species for every mixed species reforestation producing food and revenues during the entire grown period.

Also see:
nautilusprojects. com
http://robywood.ning.com/
http://futuroforestal.com/home.php
http://www.theequilibriumfund.org

ALERT: Finnish Forests in Danger!!!!!!

ACTION ALERT PLEASE FORWARD WIDELY!

Support Finnish NGOs in Their Fight for Lapland’s Ancient
Forests

By Ecological Internet’s Forests.org project
http://forests.org/
February 5, 2009

TAKE ACTION HERE NOW:
http://forests.org/shared/alerts/send.aspx?id=finland_lapland_forests

Protest Finnish timber giant Stora Enso and the
government profiting from destroying Finland’s last
ancient forests. Let them know Finland and the World’s
old-growth must be protected and restored to sustain the
Earth’s biosphere and ecosystem processes including
climate, water and biodiversity.

BRIEF BACKGROUND:
The last unprotected intact forest landscapes in Northern
Finland are currently being destroyed by the Finnish
government and timber industry. Low-productive old-growth
boreal forests located hundreds of kilometres north from
the Polar Circle are being logged systematically. Trees
more than 300 years old are mainly ending up in pulp wood
piles of timber giant Stora Enso. Only less than 5% of
Finnish forests have remained untouched by modern
forestry. Please, help Finnish NGOs to save Finland’s
natural treasures and to put international pressure on
their destructive forest industry.

This is the latest protest in Ecological Internet’s
global campaign to protect all remaining old growth
forests, and promote regeneration and restoration of
secondary forests to late successional old-growth status.
Increasing old forest cover globally is critical for
achieving global ecological sustainability — including
climate, water and biodiversity.

TAKE ACTION NOW:
http://forests.org/shared/alerts/send.aspx?id=finland_lapland_forests

DISCUSS THIS ALERT:
http://forests.org/blog/2009/02/alert-support-finnish-ngos-in.asp

10 Ways to Make Re-Forestation More Attractive! Approach #7

Micro-Investments

Micro is the opposiete of “macro” and means small. But there are some “micros”, which are doing really well and hava a “macro” impact (I am not talking about Microsoft now)

For example are World Bank and some private angel investors running very successful micro loan strategies in the third world. Those micro loans are to the larger part given to women who start a small business with the money, and who are encouraged to safe some of the money to qualify for a next step of loan for growing their businesses in the second step. All these programs seem to do very well, from India to Africa and into the Caribbean and Latin America.

And though the average amount is just 230 € in average, the impact is just stunning. People can feed their families, sometimes family businesses grow with various outlets, entire villages become independent from international aid.

Same thing also works for forest projects. One approach is done by the Arbor Day Foundation in the USA, who are fund raising using tools like the Give-A-Tree-Card, where people can buy a card, which represents the value of a tree as a birthday gift for someone for example and give it away. Thus they could fund the plantation of 8,5 Million trees last year alone. What a huge result from donations of just 5,95 US$ per card and the membership fees of the regular members. (http://www.arborday.org/index.cfm).

Germany based Forest Finance offers a different system. A single tree is accounted for 60 €m but is not just a donation to plant the tree, but includes the ownership of the tree, which means the costs of maintenance on the one hand, but also the revenue of the timber sales after 25 to 30 years. A variation of the same Idea is a saving plan of 30 € per month adding 12 trees per year to the portfolio as well including the maintenance and the revenue after 25 years. Further steps offer the ownership of a certain amount of trees in a forest section and in the last level a full hectare of forest including the land and the maintenance with a rock solid revenue after the term. (www.forestfinance.de)

Both projects show, that institutional forest management with private micro and midi financing is a reality already, though on a small scale with a lot more growth potential. Public awareness and promotion can generate more funding, while NGOs like Futuro Forestal (http://futuroforestal.com) can manage those plantations. Thus is guaranteed, that the plantations are done in a mixed species and sustainable manner on the one hand, and on the other hand these managed forests create local jobs along with a certain security that forest fires may not take place.

Also see www.nautilusprojects.com

10 Ways to Make Re-Forestation More Attractive! Approach #6

Fractional Ownership Models for Forests

Forests usually belong to someone. Some forests are just inhabited by someone. In some countries the legal situation is that people living a certain number of years on a lot become owners and can apply for a title. Then some start to think about the use of the parcel and often come to the decision to deforest the land or sometimes they first set the forest on fire and then claim the land.

An other issue are forests owned by families, often handed down since generations and often not attended at all until the time of the final harvest. These forests sometimes appear to the local population as “public” forests. Same happens to government owned forests if not managed on a regular basis.

The result is that the villagers start to abuse the forest as trash dump, start to extract timber, sometimes produce char coal right there or expose the forest to other hazardous activities such as wild camping activities with open bonfires, which include the risk of forest fires.

What can be done about such – unfortunately pretty common – approach of abusing the forests or the nature en general?

One approach is making forests visibly private.

People all over the world tend to respect private property more than public property. And people all over the world keep their private property neat and clean, while they tend to litter all over the public areas. You can watch in the third world, how people clean their own backyard, but throw the rubbish just over the fence into the neighboring lot or on the street. but also in civilized first world countries it is shocking, how people drop their plastic cups in parks and at the road sides, throw cigarette packages and even burning cigarettes right out of the windows of their driving cars. In Germany, a country rather famous for being kept clean both by the private as the public sector, history shows, that years back, when people were able to own property around lakes including the beach front, those properties were kept clean and nature could provide breading space for fish, reptiles and birds. After government changed the law, the owners needed to give access to the lake shores. The result was, that during winter season when some of the villas were not inhabited vandalism took place going as far as tossing entire walls into the lake. Also hordes of tourists meandered along the beach trails and left their waste behind, both on land and in the water. Annual cleaning activities executed by local schools and clubs presented huge piles of waste, from bottles to entire bicycles.

The best approach to such littering, vandalism and abuse is branding the forest and starting projects witch display the ownership.

Well, not everybody wants to love in the middle of nowhere, and when one loses their eyes and thinks of living in the forest, automatically pictures appear of the remote log cabin in a snow covered Canadian forest.

But this is not the only way to own a forest, have the benefits (as forests also earn money) and also contribute to nature conservation and to fight global warming.

A modern approach would be to join a forest project of a number of owners who commonly own a professionally managed forest, which includes a gated residential community or a condominium complex or a condo hotel or a combination of it all.

This way no one needs to feel lonely with the noose and the bear, but a decent infrastructure can be provided. On top the professional management makes sure that the forest is well kept, provides a healthy habitat, natural pest control and an attractive revenue. On top the permanent management of the forests including a ranger service to monitor littering, theft and forest fires make sure, that forest and the entire environment is well protected.

Inside the community all members can enjoy the advantages of a harmonic community life with all the additional benefits of having lush nature right over the fence. Also inside the forest projects like riding trails, hunting areas or any other add value packages as described earlier.

The adventures of such a joint or fractional ownership is having a permanent or temporal vacation residence with all the advantages of a one of a kind natural retreat and recreation environment, a tax exception program in many countries, a mid and long term income strategy and all this absolutely hazal free due to a project management who take care of the gated community, maintenance, rental and all issues involved on the one hand, and a professional forest management on the other hand, making neither infrastructure such as machines and employees nor know how necessary.

The benefits for the forests and the environment is, that a branded and obviously owned and managed forest is by far not as buch endangered by all the hazards described above. Local population can be included in both ways, giving them quality living space and job oportunities in both parts of the project. This guarantees that they will not be tempted to set the forest on fire to make space for different use of land. Tourists and the general public can be give access to the forest on riding and hiking trails, acompanied by rangers. They can still have romantic BBQs, though in secure BBQ areas provided, to make the jungle camp adventure complete, also jungle cottages wit an organized waste management can be provided. This creates a bit of income for the owners to be accounted against the maintenance costs and keeps the forest clean and safe at the same time.

also see
www.nautilusprojects.com
www.sunda-islands.com
www.vacationrental-kauai.com
junglecottagesmexico.blog4ever.com/blog/index

10 Ways to Make Re-Forestation More Attractive! Approach #5

#5 Arts and Crafts

The world is full of arts, crafts, toys and goods of the daily use made from plastic, of poor quality and sometimes tasteless design. Tropical wood on the other hand is a warm and natural material. Artists are often familiar with the most common types of wood, however scrolling though the tropical species the variety is incredible.

Everyone has been to vacations in different locations and found same old souvenirs. I myself own some really gorgeous hand carved elephants I bought ages ago in Sri Lanka.
When I walk by a souvenir shop here in the Caribbean I also find elephants carved from wood. I have never seen any elephants around here. The souvenir industry has become a monotone import trade of China made artifacts and often useless trash just differently branded “Souvenir from Dominican Republic, Rio de Janeiro, Hong Kong or the Maledives”

A wonderful chance would be an arts and crafts center at the edge of a rain forest. Laid out as a little village artists from all over the world can be invited to live there free of rent in little villas equipped as workshops for painters, wood carvers, furniture designers or other artists and designers, for example laying out designs for wooden floors or wooden yards. If each artist contributes for the free housing some of his artwork or copyright this would either contribute to further nature conservation if put to auction or can also create jobs.

Imagine, how much nicer for example is a wooden chess set compared to a plastic one. If for example a an artist would design a beautiful chess board and chess set of some beautiful tropical would and would transfer the copy rights to the project, a workshop with local workers would be able to produce this chess set on a semi industrialized small series. Branded and marketed in a smart way this can be the seed to a series of toys, with a back gammon set and other games to follow.

In furniture or wooden floors same approach can be taken. If an artist for example stays half a year in the project, leaves 20% of the designs he developed during this term to the project he will return home with 80% of a newly inspired
collection and the other 20% can be produced and marketed inside the project in a joiner workshop by the local population. The dimension of the woof required for such activity might even be contributed by the regular thinning activities during the growth period of reforested areas.

Wooden floors or just design patches to be set as accents into standard floors, innovative deck designs for motor and sailing yards playfully found in the arts and crafts center
and then produced in small series will always find a market.

Of course the value of the crafted wood generates a far higher revenue on the market than round wood only. But the even more valuable side effect is the integration of the local population, giving them education and a skilled work and a regular income. This will minimize the temptation to look for other alternatives which might start with burning down the forest. The space used inside a forest project will be far less than even 3%, so an environmental impact can absolutely be neglected.